How does memory actually work? Dr. Christie Chung explores why we remember, why we forget, and how photos can unlock memories we thought were lost.
You remember it perfectly. The problem is that you rewrote it the last time you told the story.
Cognitive psychologist Dr. Christie Chung, provost at Palo Alto University, joins Mixbook CEO and co-founder Andrew Laffoon to explain what your brain actually does when you remember. Memories aren't recordings. You reconstruct them every time you bring them up, which means they change, and that turns out to be a feature, not a flaw.
In this episode:
- Why long-term memory has no limit, and what does hold you back
- Why photos, music and smells unlock memories nothing else can reach
- Flashbulb memories, and why even 9/11 memories shift over time
- What Alzheimer's takes first, and why older memories hold on longest
- The memory palace, and a two-second habit change that builds new connections
Memory isn't a perfect record of your life. It's the story you keep telling, and you get a say in how it's told.
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Chapters:
0:00 Introduction: The Memory You'd Bet Money On
0:57 Is Memory a Recording? Why Memories Are Reconstructed
2:20 How Rehearsal Strengthens Memory
4:53 Nostalgia and Imagining the Future
7:09 Why We Forget, and Which Cues Bring Memories Back
9:31 Flashbulb Memories: Are They Really Photographs?
12:05 Memory as Story: Why Our Past Gets Reframed
14:48 Is Memory Limitless? How Neural Connections Grow It
23:12 The Memory Palace Technique
24:47 The File Drawer Analogy
26:26 Is Technology Changing How We Remember?
28:38 Alzheimer's and Memory: What Goes First
32:18 Why Older Adults Retell the Same Stories
33:59 How a Memory Scientist Handles Her Own Memories
37:03 Key Takeaways and What's Next
Presented by Mixbook
mixbook.com
Andrew Laffoon [00:00:00]:
Think of a memory you'd bet money on, a day you are certain about. You can see all the details. Here's the uncomfortable part. There's a good chance it didn't happen that way. Most of us assume memory works like a recording. You experience something, your brain files it back, you press play and watch it again. Is that how it really works? Welcome to The Memory Project. I'm Andrew Laffoon, CEO and co-founder of Mixbook, I spent 20 years on the question of how people hold on to what matters to them, which means I've spent 20 years assuming I understood how memory actually works.
Andrew Laffoon [00:00:37]:
My guest today is Dr. Christie Chung, cognitive psychologist and provost at Palo Alto University. She studies how memories actually get made, how they get lost, and what happens to us in between. Dr. Chung, thank you for joining me today.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:00:51]:
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Andrew. Excited to be here.
Andrew Laffoon [00:00:57]:
I want to start where most people start, which is that memory is basically a recording that you can replay. You experience something, your brain files it away, you play it back later. Is that how it actually works?
Dr. Christie Chung [00:01:11]:
Not exactly. Memories are actually reconstructed every single time you bring them back to mind. So I could start from the very beginning. So when you're experiencing the world, information comes at you, right? There's so much. You probably won't remember every single thing. And honestly, if you don't pay attention to this conversation right now, you probably won't remember most of it. But if you do pay attention, information starts to get into your short-term memory, which is the online processing of your system, and you start to, you know, selectively remember certain things that are more important to you. Information that's really important, emotionally relevant, personally relevant would be put into long-term memory.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:01:54]:
And so long-term memory is your long-term storage of information in your life. And so, you know, memories are stored there, but at the same time, every time you bring up an episode from your life, you're actually reconstructing it, meaning that memories are malleable.
Andrew Laffoon [00:02:12]:
Malleable.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:02:13]:
They could change over time, and they're not truly just a picture or a recording of the event.
Andrew Laffoon [00:02:20]:
Right, so how does that work? Like, if I bring up a memory, let's say from my childhood, and I'm, you know, doing my best to replay it, maybe I'm with my brothers and we're remembering something together, how, what would I do to change that memory? And if I don't want to change it, can you stop it?
Dr. Christie Chung [00:02:36]:
That's a really great question. I mean, reconstruction happens Almost automatically, right? Every time you bring up a memory, you may insert some experiences or emotion, but every time you bring up a memory, that's called rehearsal in your cognitive system. You're actually strengthening that memory. So I don't think anyone intentionally wanna change your own memories, right, going forward. But what happens is that every time you rehearse a memory, it gets stronger, it gets a little easier to bring up the next time. So you may be inserting certain things, but a lot of times, you know, your memory is pretty accurate. You could rely on your memory on things that are emotional to you, that are relevant to you. For example, playing with your brothers, you know, those are probably good memories from your past, from your childhood that you don't necessarily wanna forget.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:03:27]:
So each time you rehearse, you're, you know, adding a little bit more strength. to that memory, and you could bring it up easier the next time you do so.
Andrew Laffoon [00:03:37]:
Wow, fascinating. So from a rehearsal perspective, does it matter if I do it by myself versus with other people?
Dr. Christie Chung [00:03:44]:
You know, rehearsal is always good, you know, by yourself and with others. But one thing about rehearsing with others collectively is that you probably have noticed not everyone remembers the same event or same situation in the same way. Right? Meaning that if you collectively rehearse, you likely would continue to construct and reconstruct that memory with different perspectives. And I think ultimately as human beings, that's actually really important because we are social beings. I'm sure you've had the experience of going to, you know, a restaurant and some people loved the dishes and loved the experience and others didn't. But it was one experience, right? It was one memory. So in many ways, if you're collectively rehearsing and thinking through that experience together, you build a memory that is a little bit different from time, you know, to time. Each time you bring it up, you may add in a few more episodes and emotion that you didn't remember feeling, how your friends were reacting to that particular dish that you loved and maybe they didn't.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:04:50]:
So collective memory rehearsal is actually really important. for us as social beings in the community.
Andrew Laffoon [00:04:57]:
It's fascinating. I recently had the experience of having a dinner in San Francisco with a bunch of my college friends, and something about it, we hadn't actually had a dinner like that in probably 7 or 8 years. We went to college 20-plus years ago together, but when we were in college, we had a tradition of doing dinners like that in San Francisco. They all live around the world now. Something about it felt so nostalgic, And I could almost feel that it was having an effect on the memories of our past experiences, like they somehow tied together. How does that work? And is that, what does that do for us?
Dr. Christie Chung [00:05:30]:
That is a really good way to put how memory is in fact a way for us to imagine the future, right? So the memory system is fascinating. I mean, I love studying memory. That was why I started to study memory in graduate school. The memory system is, you know, it's biological. You know, there's a part of the brain called the hippocampus that gets activated when you start to create long-term memories. And what happens is that whenever you retrieve a memory, that part of the brain becomes active again. And whenever I talk about memory, people often think, oh, memory is just about the past. But in fact, memory is really the basis of your sense of self.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:06:11]:
Without memory, you won't necessarily know who you are, right? Because you have to think about your past episodes to kind of think through who I, who am I today at the present, as well as imagine the future. So in order to imagine what you may do with your friends in the future, you kind of have to think about what you did with them in the past, right? For example, in your college experience where you used to go for your dinners, where you went out to hang out and all of those memories. And then now going out for dinner again, many years later, having this new experience together that is kind of tied to the past, but at the same time also would help you imagine the future. What can we do together? And the brain system that is used to imagine the future is actually very similar to the brain system that's used to remember the past. So in many ways, biologically, we're kind of built that way. to be able to kind of, you know, put memories into places that help us continue to grow and continue to imagine. So it's fascinating.
Andrew Laffoon [00:07:13]:
Makes sense. You know, one of the things that's always puzzled me about memory is the way memory retrieval works. So, right, at this dinner, all these memories are coming up I haven't thought about in years, and it's so much fun. And of course, we're talking about it, and we're laughing, and retelling stories, and that's not how I remember it, right? And then there's other times where I so desperately wanna remember something, And I know it's there, and I just can't access it. Why is that?
Dr. Christie Chung [00:07:38]:
Forgetting could happen if you're not encoding something. If you haven't recorded something at all, you're not going to remember, right? So we call that forgetting. But forgetting could also happen when it's a retrieval error or retrieval failure, right? Meaning that you're not retrieving something, but it actually was filed away in your long-term memory system a while ago. So what happens is that if you have really good retrieval cues, so for example, a photograph, a certain smell, a certain person, a certain name, that could bring back certain memories from your past. And that, you know, is really powerful in many ways, right? Because first of all, we understand that there are many different types of forgetting, and the type of forgetting that we often refer to is not truly forgetting. because that means you can bring those memories back with help and with cues. We call them cues in cognitive psychology, but they're basically help or hints that you may have in your life that would bring back those memories for you.
Andrew Laffoon [00:08:41]:
Are there different cues that are more powerful than others?
Dr. Christie Chung [00:08:43]:
You know, it depends on the memory, I would say. Research has shown that smell is a really, really strong cue. It's a very powerful, you know, way to bring back memories. You could imagine, right? Let's say the smell of peppermint, you know, kind of brings memories of holidays, for example. And everyone probably have their own experiences with certain smells bringing back certain memories. Music, you know, it's a really good way to jog your memory about a certain time in your life, certain experiences with certain people. Pictures, you know, photographs, visual memory, very powerful. It brings you immediately back to the scene of, let's say, a vacation or graduation, a wedding ceremony.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:09:32]:
So yeah, there are many, many ways and it just depends on the memory itself. But yeah, those are powerful ways to bring back memories.
Andrew Laffoon [00:09:39]:
Fascinating. Okay, so I have a question. There are memories that are so ingrained in my mind. These are big ones. I could tell you exactly where I was standing. I could tell you what I was feeling. I've heard the term flashbulb memories. What is that?
Dr. Christie Chung [00:09:55]:
Well, flashbulb memories were coined many years ago by some researchers, and the whole reason why it was called flashbulb is because people used to think memories are like photographs, and the flashbulb was within the camera, the very first cameras that were created in the world. And so they coined it flashbulb memory. Because there are certain memories that are extremely vivid that you, you feel like you won't forget and you feel like won't change. They feel like a photograph. And usually those are memories of how you're feeling and what you're experiencing while something really big is happening in the world. For example, 9/11. Today is September 11th. So 9/11 is the day that most people in the United States won't forget.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:10:43]:
You know, you might've been in New York at that time. I myself was in graduate school. You know, I would never forget that day, you know, when I went into the classroom and everyone just stopped talking, right? We just turned our attention to something that is national. But you didn't, I mean, most people probably won't remember exactly what they were doing before and after, but they remember that moment and how they were feeling. So that is called flashbulb memory. And that is usually because something really big is happening publicly, nationally, or maybe even internationally. So when that happens, we feel that a picture has been taken of that episode, right? And that was why it was called flashbulb memory. But over time, as people continue to do more and more research, we have found that that is in fact untrue.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:11:33]:
Flashbulb memories are just like any other memories. They do change. We reconstruct details of that particular day, that particular event, and even sometimes our emotion, right? So a lot of studies have been done over 10, 20 years, and what we have seen even with 9/11 memories is that they do change over time. And that is human nature. That is just how memories are formed and how memories are retrieved over time. And with something like 9/11, because it's so publicly rehearsed, every single year and maybe even during the year, you know, a lot of details get added or deleted sometimes, right, without intention. And so that is a natural part of the memory system.
Andrew Laffoon [00:12:18]:
Something I've thought about a lot is the idea that memories are really stories we tell ourselves. 'Cause I've noticed a lot of times memories will shift. And when I look back, so for example, if I'm telling the story of Mixbook, I'll weave a different story because for one thing, 20 years, right? There's a lot of content. And so the highlights tend to change. And in fact, many of our struggles now look and feel so different because you can see, oh, actually that really bad thing led to a good thing. And so whereas before it felt purely bad, now it feels redemptive. How does that work in the brain? And is that healthy?
Dr. Christie Chung [00:12:56]:
You know, that's definitely part of being human, right? Storytelling, trying to put things into meaningful holes. And it's not just about memories and episodes from our life. It's actually even perception, right? When we see 2 lines that are kind of separated and something, you know, placed in between it, you tend to want to connect those 2 lines, right? I mean, ultimately that's human nature. We, we like complete things. And that also explains why we like stories that make sense. So when we have episodes in our lives, when we're experiencing them, We may not have the big picture just yet, right? Because we're still living life. But many years later, and this actually is something that I study in aging, we're more able to put meaning to episodes because the bigger picture is easily, you know, you can see it more, much more easily with time. And so when you go back in time and think about those episodes and potentially challenges that you have been through in your company, they make more sense, right? They have brought you to a better place.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:14:04]:
They have brought your company to reach new heights, right? That kind of feeling and that kind of narrative probably won't come until later, right? Until you see the result of how that struggle have actually made you gain something. So yes, I mean, it is definitely something we do as humans and whether it's productive or useful or not, I would say, yeah, it depends on the situation. And if it's something that helps you think more positively about your life, about your situation, then yeah, definitely that's putting meaning and in motion, you know, towards episodes. And everyone has a different way of doing so. And that is also why certain situations may be interpreted as stressful to some people, but potentially neutral or even pleasant to others. And we see that a lot, you know, in the organizational setting. Yeah, so that's just one example, but definitely we do that as human beings all the time.
Andrew Laffoon [00:15:06]:
Wow, thank you. So here's something else I wonder about. Oftentimes I have the experience of, so for example, faces, I have pretty good face memory, but at some point, I don't know if there's a limit or something, faces just start to erase. I can see the person, like, I know I know them, but man, what is their name, right? And so is there a limit to memory? And how does that limit work? Is it flexible? Can you grow it? And is it different with different things, short-term versus long-term, visual versus auditory?
Dr. Christie Chung [00:15:38]:
Yeah, very good question. I could give a whole lecture on this. Well, long-term memory is actually limitless, meaning that you could always learn more. I know it's fascinating, right? And that's why I am such a big proponent of long-term lifelong learning because you can never really have too much in your long-term memory. It's limitless. Your brain can actually continue to learn, and that's why I'm in education. But one thing that people do say is that sometimes I feel like I have this limit. I can't remember everything.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:16:13]:
And that is true because in short-term memory, which is the online processing part of your cognitive system, There is a limit, and there is a capacity limit. Everyone has a slightly different number. You might have heard of the magical number 7 plus or minus 2, because the capacity for most people is on average around 7 units. So if I were to give you, let's say, a phone number to remember, and you had never heard those digits before, you may struggle a little bit to remember all of them. But if it's a number that you have heard before, you know that it's, you know, a close friend of yours, it may be much easier for you to recall those numbers. And especially if it looks somewhat like your Social Security number, right? Those things we don't forget. So in your short-term memory, yes, there is a limit. And in fact, you know, the more we think about the memory system, the more important it is for us to think through how do we create strategies to actually, you know, improve the way that we remember.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:17:17]:
And it is possible. You can actually train your long-term, short-term memory system to retain more information. And in fact, the more you do that, the more rehearsal you do, the more you could put into your long-term memory. So yeah, I mean, definitely. And then I think you had a second part to your question.
Andrew Laffoon [00:17:37]:
Yeah, I'm a bit stuck on the limitless idea, so I'm just going to process the idea with you. So the 7 plus or minus 2 I've heard about, right? So when you remember a phone number, the area code doesn't count as 3, it counts as 1, right? 'Cause that's a chunk. It's been chunked.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:17:49]:
It's a chunk, yes.
Andrew Laffoon [00:17:51]:
So, or like how, well, large language models will tokenize like chunks of text, right? So they can be more efficient. So the idea of limitless is kind of mind-boggling to me, right? Because the brain is a set size. It's not like your head is growing. So how does it fit? Is there some kind of memory compression that happens behind the scenes, or is it better at memorizing more similar things or related things? Like, do you— is there some technique to fitting more into the same amount of space?
Dr. Christie Chung [00:18:22]:
So you may have already noticed that the terms that people use in computer science are very similar to the terms we use in cognitive psychology because the 2 fields actually started at around the same time. So I used to teach this course called History and Systems in Psychology, and students always get really fascinated that I teach about computer science history too, because we started at the same time. In order to create intelligent computers or even computers that can simulate human brain, we have to understand the human brain, and, and that's what we do as cognitive psychologists. So the word memory is used in computer science as well. But the memory on your computer is limited, right? You could buy a really, really powerful computer and get more memory on it, but nevertheless, it's limited. But for human brain, it's the complete opposite. We don't have a limit to it. And the way for us to think through this is that memory isn't something like a chip.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:19:20]:
It's not just the size of your brain. It's actually how you use your neuronal functions. And connections. So the more connections you make between and among your neurons, the better your memory would be. And that, in fact, the more connections you continue to build and continue to rehearse and continue to warm up. I say this because whenever you rehearse a memory, your system gets a little bit warmer. And if you heat it up more, meaning that more and more connections are being made within your system, And the more repetition you have in those connections, the stronger that memory would be. So it's not necessarily just about the size of your brain, it's really about how many neuronal connections you make.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:20:07]:
And so, and that is why, you know, you could always learn something new. People always say, you know, if you want to continue to stay sharp, do something with your brain, learn a new language, challenge yourself to do something different. Change your daily routine because once you get really into a habit, you know, you, you don't necessarily have to think as much when you do something. And when you do that, you know, when things become automatized, you don't necessarily have to use the brainpower to continue to do that particular task. So then, you know, one of the most powerful ways for you to continue to cultivate neuron connections in your brain is to do something completely different. I would even tell my students, try to brush your teeth with the other hand, you know, when you wake up tomorrow morning. I'm right-handed, but I use my left hand for many other things because I was like, why not? I have 2 hands, right? I could use my left hand for the mouse. Once in a while, I do brush my teeth with my left hand because then you're connecting more neurons on the other side of your brain.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:21:12]:
And when you do that, you strengthen those connections. And you end up having the ability to remember more, do more, and just, you know, use more parts of your brain. And the brain is powerful, you know, and in some way mysterious. But what I could say is that most human beings don't make use of all parts of their brain as much as they could. So why not use that to your fullest potential when you can?
Andrew Laffoon [00:21:37]:
Is this kind of like that idea you sometimes hear? I think a lot of sci-fi books are based on this idea of We're only using 15% of our brain. You, that other 85% can be used for all these things. Insert sci-fi plot twist here.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:21:49]:
It's somewhat true. I wouldn't say it's, it's completely, you know, it's not as simple as that, but we could always make more connections. And in fact, if you do injure one part of your brain, you know, depending on which part it is, it's possible for another part of the brain to take up that function. And that actually happens It's much easier when the person is younger, when the brain is more plastic. It's called neuroplasticity, which means flexibility, ability to take over certain functions. But if those functions are extremely specialized, for example, making memory, that would be difficult. Yeah, those functions would be difficult to transfer to another part of the brain.
Andrew Laffoon [00:22:32]:
Fascinating. Okay, so The limitless memory, what the image it has in my head is like Lewis and Clark exploring the New World, and they don't even have a map yet, right? And it's unimaginably vast. There's no way you can fill it all. And so it feels like the limiting function isn't actually the space, it's the map. Can you actually figure out where to put all these things and explore, right? To your point, right? Using the mouse with the left hand, which seems really— really strange, is actually opening up new areas of the map you haven't explored.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:23:05]:
Exactly. Yes, exactly. It feels a little uncomfortable at first, but the more you do it, the more you realize, I have this ability. I can actually do this. I actually hurt my wrist when I was in graduate school, and I couldn't use my right hand for a long time, and I thought my career was over at that point. And then I realized, oh no, I have another hand. You know, I could use the other hand to do You know, the things that I need to do. I even started to try to write with my left.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:23:32]:
I'm not left-handed, but I ended up doing it because you can train that part of your brain. And that goes for memories too. You know, you can actually continue to learn, continue to put information into your brain, and that's why lifelong learning is so critical.
Andrew Laffoon [00:23:47]:
Wow. There's this ancient memory technique called the memory palace. I'm sure you've probably heard of it. Is that connected to all this?
Dr. Christie Chung [00:23:54]:
You know, that's a, that's actually a mnemonic. You know, in cognitive psychology, we call it a mnemonic, meaning that it's a way for us to put more information into your system with something that is already anchored, right? So the memory palace, there are many, many versions to this. It's called the method of loci. You can think of a place, for example, your house that you're really familiar with, and all the rooms in your house could serve as anchors.
Andrew Laffoon [00:24:21]:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:24:22]:
For things that you want to put in it. So for example, you have a grocery list and let's say you don't have your computer that day or your phone, right? Nowadays people just outsource everything to their phone. But let's say you don't have any of that. You only have your brain. What you could do is put information or all the items that you want to buy into those spaces because your memory, the layout of your house is really familiar to you. It's kind of like the palace, right? but this is your house. Place the milk in the living room, blueberries in the kitchen, some chicken maybe in your bedroom, you know, anything, anything weird. Actually, the more weird it is, the better it is as a memory cue.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:25:04]:
And then when you get to the grocery store, walk through your house and try to think about what you need to buy. You probably won't forget any of them. I do this with my daughter all the time.
Andrew Laffoon [00:25:15]:
Yeah. What are those burgers doing on the couch, man? Okay. That is hilarious. Yeah.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:25:22]:
The more weird, the better. Wow. Wow.
Andrew Laffoon [00:25:26]:
One of the other things you talk about in terms of analogies to memory is the file drawer. Talk to me a little bit about how that works.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:25:34]:
So the file drawer is really just an analogy. In fact, you know, memories are not truly that way, right? When you think about it, it's not necessarily just filed somewhere. And brought back exactly the same because a file drawer is really a piece of paper filed into a drawer. But in some ways, that process is similar to memory retrieval. You could bring information back from your long-term system into your short-term system. And we talked about short-term memory earlier. That is your online processing system, meaning that whenever you talk, for example, you and I, we're having a conversation right now. We're using our online short-term memory system, working memory system to do so, so that we could bring back information that we know.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:26:19]:
I've been teaching this for so many years of my life, right? So I'm bringing all that information back to my online processing so that I could have this conversation with you. And that process is important because if you're not able to bring information from your file drawer back to your online processing, then you may feel like you're forgetting that information or that that information was never there. But in fact, that is probably not true for most information that you have encoded. And that is why, you know, retrieval cues such as a picture, smell, a person, you know, or music could bring back memories so strongly and vividly sometimes because they serve as a hint.
Andrew Laffoon [00:27:05]:
Hmm, makes sense. So earlier you, you said, you said something really interesting, which is we're outsourcing our memories to, to the, to these guys, right? We're take— we're taking photos, we're writing down our grocery lists, we're doing all these different things to outsource our memories. How is that affecting our brains?
Dr. Christie Chung [00:27:21]:
That's a great question. You know, about 20 years ago, people used to ask me this question, how do you think Google is gonna change our brain? And then now it's AI, right? And these devices that we have, in fact, sometimes I think of them as just my external brain because ultimately your online processing, your working memory is limited, right? So sometimes let's say someone gives you their phone number. I don't think anyone really remembers them in their head anymore. We used to do that, but now we just type it into the phone and then you move on to another thing, right? You move on to another task that you need to do. Because you can actually safely say, I think I could find it later, right? It's going to be on my phone. So whether it changes your brain or not, I would say most likely not fundamentally biologically, but it does change the way that you store and retrieve information at the end because ultimately the information is not in your brain, right? So I don't know how many phone numbers you remember nowadays. I don't remember any, you know, apart from the ones that I really need to know. And probably the ones that I encoded before I even got my phone, right? People who are really important to me, my home number, my husband's number, and then not many more other than that.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:28:42]:
And the reason is because we have outsourced that type of task to computers and to phones. But it didn't fundamentally change the brain, I feel, right? I mean, the processes that we use to make memories are still the same. It's just that we go to different places to get information now. And we feel safe because usually the phone doesn't just delete everything unless you press the wrong button or something really bad happens. And we could trust it to be kind of our external brain.
Andrew Laffoon [00:29:11]:
Yep. Or we forgot where we wrote it down.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:29:14]:
Was it— And you can't find it. That's a retrieval error.
Andrew Laffoon [00:29:17]:
Yeah, I got a lot of those in my life. All makes sense. So, you know, one of the things that, that's resonant to us, it's September and it's World Alzheimer's Month. What happens to the brain on Alzheimer's? I've got a close friend whose dad is going through it. It's a really tough journey. Walk me through what part of our memory goes first and what do we hold onto the longest? And is there any way to fight against it?
Dr. Christie Chung [00:29:43]:
Let me share a story. I actually went into memory and aging research because of my grandfather who suffered from Alzheimer's disease when I was in undergraduate studies. And then at that time, you know, I was a psych major already and I wanted to do something. I wanted to, you know, make use of my degree. And then I realized not many, many people actually go into memory and aging. And so I decided that was what I wanted to do, and that was why I started studying aging and memory. Alzheimer's disease usually starts with something called dementia, which is a cognitive decline that usually shows up in memory deficits. But that's not the only thing.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:30:26]:
Usually you would notice that the person may not remember as well. They may start to get confused a little bit. And the reason for that is because Alzheimer's disease usually affects the medial temporal lobe, which are, you know, on the 2 sides of your head. And if you were to put your fingers 2 inches in, you would actually touch a structure called the hippocampus or hippocampi, which are in the middle of the temporal lobes. And so that area gets affected first in Alzheimer's disease. And that explains why people usually exhibit memory issues, cognitive issues that are mostly related to not remembering recent memories. And that is important to distinguish because Alzheimer's disease may start with someone not remembering, let's say where they went yesterday or where they parked their car, what they ate, but it may not necessarily affect their long-term older, you know, very emotional memories in their lives. So most likely in the early stages of Alzheimer's, they will still remember their loved ones, potentially people who are older, maybe their wedding or, you know, significant events in their lives.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:31:37]:
childhood memories and all that. And the reason is because of something we just talked about. You know, older memories have had many, many chances of getting rehearsed, and the rehearsals make memories stronger. They stay with us, and there are many more connections, right? The more neuronal connections you have, the harder it is to lose that memory. But the newer memories, you don't have as many connections. You know, let's say you had steak last night, And then you don't rehearse that again because why, why would you wanna, you know, always talk about your dinner unless it's an amazing dinner, you probably would. But otherwise there's no reason to always talk about what you just ate. That's easy to remember because those were not rehearsed memories and the connections are just not strong.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:32:20]:
And so newer memories get forgotten first, older memories stay. And as Alzheimer's disease continue to progress, it could progress through the whole brain. Meaning that it's not just a memory issue. It starts with memory issues usually, but it goes throughout the brain. People may start to have reasoning issues. They may have problems putting on clothes. They may have problems with their eyesight, spatial ability. So overall, it's a neurodegenerative disease, meaning that once you get diagnosed, there's actually no cure at this time, but there are ways for us to slow down the progression of the illness. And it could be really devastating towards the end part of the illness.
Andrew Laffoon [00:33:05]:
Yeah, that's hard. It's, you know, your idea of repetition of memories and storytelling and rehearsals made me think about how grandparents and folks as we age, we tend to tell the same stories over and over and over, which can be maybe annoying to the people around us, but it actually serves a really important function.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:33:25]:
Definitely. Yes, that's rehearsal. You know, the more repetitions and more rehearsals you do with your memories, the stronger the memories are. And in fact, the more convinced that you would be that those are the actual memories. And sometimes, you know, we all have experienced this. There are memories that may be created, you know, that may be false memories, but if we tell ourselves enough and rehearse them enough, they may end up becoming Real memories or real enough memories in our, in our minds. But it is so true. You know, older adults love to tell stories for a reason because at their age, they're able to put meaning to things, right? It's just like what you talked about earlier with your company.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:34:07]:
With 20 years of experience, you can talk about all the different challenges, all the ups and downs of the company using a narrative, using a storytelling mode. But when you're experiencing those episodes, it may be a little bit harder. And so for older adults, being able to put meaning to those episodes in their lives, it's easier and also much, makes much more sense. And that in fact is a really powerful way for them to retain memories because it helps with rehearsal, it helps with connections. Their brain is firing up each time, you know, they rehearse a story and it makes it stronger each time.
Andrew Laffoon [00:34:46]:
Wow, that's really helpful. So just one more question. After all the years you've spent studying memories and really pursuing a deeper understanding, how has that changed how you handle your own memories?
Dr. Christie Chung [00:34:58]:
Well, you know, I have a 10-year-old daughter, and one thing that I intentionally do with her is that I try to collectively rehearse memories almost every day with her. And this is something, it's actually backed by research. You know, the more you rehearse your memories with your child or with people around you, the better and more resilient your memory would be. Because in many ways, I take a lot of pictures, you know, I take a lot of videos, but what I don't wanna forget are those special moments with her that may not be in photos and, and videos. But then the photos and videos that I take brings those memories back too, because those are really powerful memory cues. But one thing that I do is that I try to intentionally do that with her. And what we know is that collective memory retrieval and rehearsal helps with making up stories and narratives for your life, giving meaning to your life. I realized that, you know, if I don't do that with her, every day is just a day in school, right? It's just a normal day in school for her.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:36:03]:
But when we try to rehearse and when we think about what has actually happened today, there are so many different meanings that we may not immediately extract. Right, that actually would help you remember and form your, yourself, your self-identity. I mean, for her, she's young, so I feel like that's really important. For myself, you know, I've been through many different experiences. I've lived in many different countries in my life. And in some ways, you know, you could go day by day and say, oh, this is just what I need to do today. But when you think about it, that's a really important story to tell because now that I'm an educator, I'm a provost at a university. I want students to know there is a reason why I moved into education and continue to become a leader in education.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:36:51]:
It's because I've been through some of the episodes that they're going through right now. They're meaningful. It may be difficult, right, when you first go into a graduate program and you don't know anybody and you feel like, oh, do I even belong here? So those feelings are real. But when I am able to actually put all that into a powerful story, of how that actually created opportunities for myself in my career, I can tell that to the students who are incoming. And I just did that this week. It was orientation a few days ago. So yeah, I mean, I try to apply what I learn and what I teach to my daily life and try to help people with it as well.
Andrew Laffoon [00:37:29]:
What a gift. Yeah. Wow. Dr. Kristie Chung, thank you. Thank you for speaking with me.
Dr. Christie Chung [00:37:35]:
Thank you so much for, you know, inviting me. This is a great conversation. Let's do it again.
Andrew Laffoon [00:37:40]:
Well, the good news is we get to episode 2. We're gonna be coming back again to learn about how memory shapes you. We touched on that today. Core memories, identity, and what the purpose is of nostalgia. Wow. I am gonna be thinking about that conversation for a while. I mean, it's shocking, the idea that memories are limitless. We can store as many as we want.
Andrew Laffoon [00:38:06]:
What we lack is a map to find them, a key to open that door. And the thing that connects all that together is the stories we tell about ourselves, because memory is more than just a perfect reflection or a photograph. Memory is actually a narrative. It's a story. And we could benefit from telling those stories and rehearsing those memories with people around us who experienced it or who did it. And that's a way to Not only change the way we view our past, but change the way we view our future, to build relationships, and to fight dementia and Alzheimer's. What a powerful idea. I'm looking forward to going forward with Dr. Chung in the next episode and understand how exactly this changes us. If you've ever wanted to make more meaning out of your memories, subscribe and join us. That is what this whole series is exploring. Moments pass in a blink. The stories are what we get to keep. This has been The Memory Project from Mixbook.